A collection of Rabbanim supporting the heter (Re Laskin kehuna)
A recent major example of Lakewood leadership messing things up yet again, based on what we have personally verified with numerous Rabbanim - including Rabbi Forcheimer - is that whatever the famous tumultmacher, Chaim Tzvi Gorelick (to quote Rabbi Forcheimer "troublemaker") says, R' Malkiel accepts as to quote Rabbi Forcheimer "Torah Misinai". He is going around trying to create this narrative that the Beis Din was corrupt etc. etc. A big part of their tactics is to give this impression that the entire heter is the product of certain individuals etc. that they would like to, and wrongly feel that they can disgustingly attack and try to cause צער to. These people are experienced, expert מערכה wagers, and they are professionals in setting the public narrative. While it is not our place to weigh in on any new information that may have been uncovered in the past year, one thing is for certain is that it does not a corrupt Beis Din create. It is also quite clear in Rav Fuerst's letter (below) that he is of the belief that graves cannot force him to divorce, and he is the main one that paskened the shaila after an agreement to this effect between Rav Bess, Rabbi Sherwinter, and Rabbi Bromberg. (Does anyone think that the same research can't be done to numerous other families who received the heter?! Are we going to tell them all to start getting divorced?! We also confirmed this with Rabbi Forcheimer (on recording) though with the new Klugman chatzer who knows what he says now. See more on this below under Rabbi Forcheimer's letter.) And now we are stuck with a terrible raging machlokes with no end in sight, and instead of leadership stepping in and saying enough is enough, they are stoking the fires evermore.
These letters are not new, but people walk around thinking that the basis for the heter was something the Bais Havaad suddenly concocted out of nowhere one morning, just because. This clearly shows that such an assumption is incorrect. Instead, the heter was the result of a meticulous process, supported by countless other poskim.
Now, if someone wants to argue that new evidence has been discovered and the psak should be revisited—perhaps even to the extent of forcing them to get divorced, although we have already pointed out that Rav Fuerst (and Rabbi Forcheimer) holds that in our scenario this would not be the case—that’s a possibility. However, considering that it’s often the same individuals who claim the original psak was never reliable, and it's the same individuals who run around with all sorts of conspiracy theories about sheitels and chickens and the like (think Chaim Tzvi Gorelick and R' Sariel Rosenberg), I would remain skeptical.
It’s also important to remember that even if you believe Rabbi Miller can argue against Reb Moshe (to quote, "you're right according to Rav Moshe it is mutar, but the Torah says it's asur!"), let’s not forget that Reb Moshe certainly has the authority against Rabbi miller ודי לחכימא
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| Unfortunately it seems he was forced to retract due to pressure from rabbi kotler |
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Haha. This is actually getting funny.
ReplyDeleteWe all know that there is no corruption in the BD giving the heter.
Just because one of the dayanim once was mattir an eishis ish.. SO what?
Just because they forged a Russian Letter?
People really thinks this makes them corrupt? Do these people know that Gorelick has in his sefer a mareh makom that is not muchrach! How can they even compare
We here at the blog are not qualified to comment on Russian letters, and I doubt you are either. If you happen to have inside information that it is truly a ziyuf, would you care to inform us what it is? My understanding is there are experts both ways. Also, what would lead you to think the dayanim forged the Russian letter? That seems to be an idiotic, slanderous claim! It does not seem to be the case that one of the dayanim was matir an eishes ish, but once again, I'm sure you know better. One thing I really don't understand is the part you wrote about Gorelick. Do you care to explain which mareh makom in which sefer is not muchrach?
DeleteThere are experts on both sides of moon landing too. Go chase a ufo, you're more qualified on that field.
Delete?
DeleteThe narrative setting going on by these expert tumultmachers who try to take over comments section with their narrative is horrific. The accusations they level at gedolei Yisrael to whom thousands turn to with serious issues are repulsive. Only someone with a real bitter agenda could think to accuse a gadol and big posek of forging a letter with scanty evidence that it is forged and absolutely no evidence that he forged it. (Usually, if someone is told something forged was brought in to Beis Din, we would assume it was a litigant. Think שטרא זייפא....) All this to try and set a narrative. They know that the claim is so outlandish that a few people will believe they cannot have made it up. But the truth is that with top professors signing off on the authenticity of the letter, and with the letter having passed real forensics, not some stupid carbon dating, it would be foolish to accuse anyone of having forged it. Especially given that the source of the letter was interviewed by a different Beis Din which issued a statement to that effect. In fact, with all Englander's uncanny ability to detect forgeries that no one else could, and to know exactly what to look at to find them, the most logical presumption would be that if it is truly forged, it was Englander trying to frame some Rabbanim. This would be perfectly in line with his past.
DeleteBut now we get to the real issue. How is it that a family who was always unsure as to their kehuna - a family which asked numerous shailos lehalacha in the past (this is just another which received a different answer - and this because the other ones were if they are permitted to behave as kohanim whereas this one was if they are obligated to. Also, this shaila was brought to talmidei Rav Moshe) - a family which people always bothered about their supposed kehuna status - a family in which there were those who have actually turned down pidyon haben due to their uncertainties in kehuna - how does such a family suddenly have a pristine "chezkas" kehuna? The sole source upon which they had based their behavior as kohanim was the word of an irreligious man who lost his father at the age of 5 and no one ever heard hide or hair of his family. (His mother's father helped raise him for about a year and a half until his mother remarried.) A man who was raised by an irreligious stepfather who was a kohen - a stepfather he referred to as his father, unlike his siblings who did not. And these siblings mysteriously did not believe in the kehuna. A family which was constantly asking their father and grandfather how they know they're kohanim. And this is without getting into the chalalus etc....
How they attempted to set their narrative against this is beyond me.... And this has all been heard by numerous Rabbanim and recorded. Did they just have amnesia or something???
Thank you so much 'voice of reason'.
DeleteNobody mentioned the foolishness of the forgery claim, how unlikely it is that any member of the Beis Din forged that letter. They have extraordinary claims, with the weakest of evidence. One of them actually wrote that the letter was written after Rosh Hashana, yet still expressed wishes for a good year, which is impossible. How can anyone take such people seriously?
I assume you're not talking about Rabbi Bess. Rabbi Bess is a mediocre kashrus professional at best, there's no sin in questioning if he can be fooled in a matter far beyond his pay grade. You must be referring to someone else. Pray tell who's this "godol and big posek" you're referring to?
DeleteRabbi Bess has actually been the head of Beis Din on the West Coast for decades, dealing with all sorts of issues your average Rav never sees. He had tremendous shaichus with all the Rabbanim of the last dor, and was especially close with Rav Gustman. He has the respect of all big Rabbanim nowadays, including Rav Shlomo Miller. Do your research before sounding like an idiot with an agenda.
DeleteIf you want to discuss Lakewood's real issues, you can discuss that a city of so many high quality bnei torah, has such a low caliber of poskim, who all they know is some hilchos shabbos and Yoreh deah, and are below the bar of the standard Rav out of town...
ReplyDeleteEither way, I enjoyed how one one hand you wrote:
" We on this blog are fans of all poskim, and one of our main positions is that nobody should be attacked for their understanding of the Torah if they believe they are following their mesorah and they are big enough, "
whereas a few lines earlier you made a dig at R Sariel Rosenberg...
I guess it all depends on the agenda.
If you can't understand the difference, you probably should go back to yeshiva for a few years. The dig at R Sariel was to point out the obvious that when he attacks others and promotes maarachos, it is merely maarachos, and not anything that should be taken too seriously against regular, levelheaded Rabbanim. We did not c"v intend that anyone should take out of this that he does not have the right to his own opinion that all chickens are asur and all sheitlach are avodah zara.
DeleteYour claim that out of town Rabbanim are greater Talmidei Chachamim is not based on anything. In Lakewood, a tzibbur of lomdim will discuss any pesak, not accepting it at face value. Out of town, you can get away with anything. That's why their prestige is greater, even if the learning level is lower.
Delete"And now we are stuck with a terrible raging machlokes with no end in sight"
ReplyDeleteClassic. A blog dedicated to machlokes is decrying machlokes. I am sure Korach also spoke against Moshe Rabeinu for being machzik b'machlokes and not stepping down
We are actually dedicated to stopping the people who promote "maarachos". In other words, we are dedicated to stopping machlokes in the long run. The part about Korach does not make much sense. Maybe you'll enlighten us with an explanation?
DeleteThis article is gibberish. Can you rewrite it so it is readable?
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. A few people contributed and it was not redone yet to make for a smooth read. We will rewrite it when we have time, or you could if you would like. Once again, we welcome guest contributions and ideas. The purpose of this blog is for real discussion to take place about real issues that affect real people.
Deletewho is this zev litke that anyone should care about his opinion? I wonder if R Shlomo Miller can't be mevatel R Moshe, what can a Latke do to R Shlomo Miller?
ReplyDeleteIf you don't know him, why are you bashing him, calling him a derogatory name?
DeleteActually, he is involved in these issues for many years, and has written Seforim of his pesakim. He was close to Reb Zalman Nechemiah and others.
https://hebrewbooks.org/56449
DeleteBlame it on a chatzer, love it. Is that seriously all you can come up with?
ReplyDeleteYou even agree yourself that based on the research done it's clear that the psak was a mistake. So what's exactly your point?
What it actually says is, "While it is not our place to weigh in on any new information that may have been uncovered in the past year... if someone wants to argue that new evidence has been discovered..." We don't have access to the information, therefore we did not opine on the information. Our point was expressed very clearly that according to Rav Fuerst's letter, and Rabbi Forcheimer told us the same, digging up graves would not make a difference. Don't you think the same could be done in at least 50% of the cases Rav Moshe was matir, let alone the hundreds of cases that have happened since? Read what we wrote before commenting please.
DeleteIf there was a chezkas kehuna here, which there clearly is as anyone who cracked a book can tell you, there is no doubt that 9 graves are enough to help the chazaka.
DeleteThat is apparently the opinion of rabbi forscheimer as well. Although your av bais din threatened him that if he doesn't matir it you will open up this blog, he's apparently not very scared of your blog. Shocking.
(Rabbi Fuerst matered the aishes ish as well in Baltimore, against the psak of rav dovid, also based on letters that the av bais din forged)
What in the world does this have to do with the psak from R Moshe? It is a good shayla how we should judge 22 coincidental kvarim that confirm someone is a kohen, but this ain't got nothing to do with the case at hand. There is something called chazaka, which we give skila baed on it. Bunim's father and grandfather definitely practiced kehuna, and his grandfather was convinced of this mesora... This is a chazaka l'chol davar.
DeleteR Moshe in every case that he paskened and didn't give kehuna status was children of unfrum parents (who were not frum for several generations as is stressed in Mesoras Moshe). This is not the case here.
Agav, R Tendler claims that every case R Moshe paskened on was only after they dug as much as they could. Indeed there wasn't ancestry.com in his times, but it is likely that had such research been available he would have required it.
Also the kvarim discussion is relevant only because the Beis Din decided it was so. R fuerst in his letter quotes mumchim that the kvarim they brought are not related to them.
DeleteBeing that 3 DNA tests have proven otherwise (besides all the other rayos) and his private secret mumcha has yet to come out of the closet, it is relevant.
Likewise R Sherwinter said a week before the wedding that the basis of his psak is that it is clear that the kever of the grandfather the family is presenting is wrong and he even knows of the right kever. Also R Bess has a letter where he explains that the hetter is based on the kever not being the Grandfather.
I guess it is convenient to now claim a new case that kvarim don't count... Right. Totally coincidental that a family that claims to be kohanim also happen to have had 22 relatives who wrote kohen on their kever.
Lichvod Dayan Englander. Your comments are quite entertaining, but why do you need to write so many comments?! It's a bit weird that a dayan such as yourself is sitting on blogs all day, but I guess if your intent is to fight a PR battle and try to hurt people you dislike it makes sense... It was cute how you originally used the name BZ Rotberg, but I guess you figured it would be too identifiable. Unfortunately for you, it's your cliche writing and thickheaded taanos which expose your identity. Of course, your delusional mind probably has you as certain that this blog is Rav Sholom(!) as you were that BZ Rotberg is Rav Sholom. You probably have proofs just as powerful as your proofs that Rav Sholom "forged" the Russian letter. (And let us not forget that Rav Reuven's letter was also forged and so was the invitation, to name but a few of the "forgeries" you uncovered. And how about your original proof that they are kohanim because your shver would not have taken Yitzchak as a son in law if his grandfather was irreligious!) It's really quite comical to watch you make such a fool of yourself.
DeleteBut I'm sure the Rabbanim really care about your "Halachic" reasoning to explain why there should be a chazaka over here. Just as much as they care about your proofs that they themselves hold that the graves make a difference. And probably talmidim of Rav Moshe's such as Rav Shmuel Fuerst don't really know his opinion... And Rav David Cohen who told me that he heard directly from Rav Moshe that kehuna can only go through frum mesorah and nothing else also doesn't know what he is talking about. And all the Rabbanim (even ones you respect such as Rav Senderovic) who have given this heter without requiring this kind of research also don't know what they're talking about - because it's obvious that you have to. No?!
Dovid Shlomo. Your arrogance knows no bounds! Perhaps you should get off your high horse, and shrink your swollen head and come to terms with the fact that not everyone is obligated to agree with you!
I'm not sure who "my" av beis din is. And I'm not sure what this blog has to do with Rabbi Forcheimer. What I'm really not sure is why the topic that garners by far the most attention is whether or not the Laskins are kohanim. There's no other issues in Lakewood that are important to people?! Or are people just sick. This was supposed to be one benign article about one random topic among many other topics. I think it's about time people move past it and we can discuss matters which actually affect people's lives.
DeleteYou think Englander is the only guy upset about this? Wake up and smell the coffee.
DeleteRabbi Fuerst is not a talmid of Rav Moshe he's a talmid of Mordy Tendler. Do some research
DeleteI am sure there are hundreds of people foolish enough to be upset about a private psak of which they only think they know some of the details of. That was not my point. When there are near exact quotes from what Englander has written previously, and the philology demonstrates a number of the comments to be him a lot more than they demonstrate the "famous Russian forgery" (though maybe not more than philology demonstrates that the zohar is a ziyuf...), I think I have the right to respond to him.
DeleteNo idea what R Dovid Kohn said to you in a conversation, but I saw a hand written letter from him where he explains that the psak was never said when there is a chezkas kehuna. He also explained the entire psak is based on one incident that he had with R Moshe. But whatever...
DeleteThe "aleph beis" of chazaka is that it is based on the normal behavior given the situation, i.e. that people only behave this way in this circumstance when "xyz" is true, therefore the chazaka is a raaya or chazaka to "xyz". It does not create dinim. It doesn't even require us to assume that something more than the norm may have happened. For example, if someone's eidei kiddushun turned out to be pasul, even if they are married for 50 years, this would not create a chazaka and force us to assume that there was another kiddushin. Don't think the Rabbanim are so stupid. Chances are they know a little about these sugyos too.
DeleteWhy did you not bring the letter of the actual Beis din? You couldn't figure out which girsa to bring?
ReplyDeleteThat's a possibility. The simpler explanation is that they are the ones being attacked, so it is sort of purposeless to bring them...
DeleteI hear. So why did they put out the letter in the first place?
DeleteHi Sholom. Nice blog you have here. I see you are making good on your word to Rabbi Forcheimer "Not to be able to prevent your talmidim from spreading lashon hara about him online". Boruch shomer havtachaso l'yisroel. Or, more accurately, Sholom shomer havtachaso l'yaakov. Anyhow, this blog is pretty pathetic.
ReplyDeleteI know you like to be an oiberchochom and believe you are smarter than everyone else in the world, but you were caught with your pants down here issuing a baseless psak. You may or may not have been justified in issuing it a year ago based on the info available then, but the Laskin family did not ask you to do so nor did they have any concerns or sfeikos about their yichus, and they have every right in the world to research their yichus thoroughly and be outraged about the baselsess hota'as la'az that you guys created about them. The Lakewood community is too smart to fall for this attempted portrayal of the family being rodef the poor bais din, nebech. You guys were motzi la'az on them and deserve to sow what you reap.
In all honesty, you should take down that letter from R' Gershon Bess. He looks like a insufferable, self-righteous idiot. The Laskin family has no right to be outraged that the bais din completely besmirched them and now when upon their extensive research, this heter turns out to be no more than another hoax, demand that the Bais Din either publicly retract or at least submit to an independent unbiased Bais Din to review if the "heter" still has any bases. Like, hello? Any self-awareness here?
Anyways, Sholom. I would advise you to stay in your lane. Not sure what that is now, but it's not moonlighting as a dayan. You're 0 for 2 and it ain't looking good.
Comments like these are very much not appreciated. We don't know what your driving at or what your agenda is, and we understand maybe every tenth word that you wrote. Maybe we're just naive, or simply not familiar enough with "yeshivish politics", but something definitely seems off when what was supposed to be some lame, benign article that doesn't step on anyone's toes seems to have everyone loosely affiliated with the Laskin family running to comment and hinting at what seems to be all sorts of conspiracy theories which we cannot begin to understand. In the future we will have to think twice before allowing such nasty comments to go through.
DeleteDude, I am in no way affiliated with the Laskin family. Just a regular Lakewood yungerman. I, like everyone else find it to be a combination of appalling and amusing at the lack of self-awareness of this BD! It's not just me, it's like 95% of people in Lakewood. Walk into any Yeshiva coffee room, shul or anywhere else and listen to what people are saying! You guys pulled the outrageous move of being mefakfek on the kehuna of an entire extended family, and then caught doing terribly sloppy research and refusing to defend/explain yourself and apologize to the family! Everyone who signed these papers were people who already had skin in the game and were coming to defend their own psak! Are you really so thick that you don't chap that putting out an angry kol koreh attacking the "marbei machlokes" who are in fact trying to defend themseves from baseless hotza'as la'az that you created sounds incredibly tone-deaf and pathetic??? And what about all the uninvolved rabbanim who issued a kol koreh demanding that the Bais Din explain themselves? If you're really as innocent and naive as you are portraying yourself, why the selective reporting, huh? I happen to personally know of even more Rabbanim who wanted to sign that kol koreh but didn't so as not to publicly fight with them. But almost all outsiders agree that it's completely and unprecedentedly outrageous! if you're too naïve to chap what I am talking about, then you are in the wrong business! Go open an emunah and bitachon blog!
DeleteI'm not sure what our role was in this pikpuk. From what we have gathered, it definitely doesn't seem the narrative is what you're making it to be. That was the main point of our article. Mostly everyone we have been hearing from frankly doesn't care much about the entire case. Only a couple hundred Laskin associates and others who feel personally about this.
DeleteWe would love to open an Emunah and Bitachon blog, but how many visitors do you think it will get? It's quite unfortunate, we know. If there would be hope for an Emunah and Bitachon blog taking off, there probably would not have been any need for this blog.
Ok, so you are saying that you don't give a damn about the injustice done to the Laskins because you don't know them so you don't care about them. Fair enough. At least your honest. But don't come promoting this painfully tone deaf self-righteous defense from the people who created this mess to begin with attempting to defend themselves. Cuz to anyone with a tiny drop of seichel, it sounds so pathetic and off.
DeleteAnd don't try to come with your chazer feesel about an emunah and bitachon blog. That is obviously not where you are holding if you are regurgitating close to four decade old lashon hara about R' Malkiel's heter me'ah. There is zero to'eles in that and it has zero to do with "Fixing Lakewood" and everything to do with "not being able to prevent my talmidim from spreading Lashon Hara about you and R' Malkiel and R' Elya Ber online".
We're not sure what this business with telling talmidim something is, but the purpose of bringing up the heter meah was, as explicitly explained, not about regurgitating old lashon hara, but rather about attempting to understand the way the leadership works.
DeleteWe request that people stop trying to create problems where none exist, and instead be dan lekaf zchus that maybe our intentions are not what some people for some reason think it is. At the very least, understand that others may view things in a different light than you. That's one of the unfortunate problems with todays dor. Maybe we will write an article about it in the future.
Oy, nebech. We all need to be "dan you l'fak zechus" for exposing R' Malkiel's heter meah laundry on the internet! Of course you only did so with the most noble intentions! I get it, you are just coming to be marbeh shalom(k), and for some reason you are being SO misunderstood by the people in today's dor. What rotten luck! Can't imagine why this is all happening to you! What an unexpected and unwarranted reaction to such an important and righteous cause!
DeleteI get it. He's coming to be marbeh shalom and your coming to be rodef shalom
DeleteGut gezugt!
DeleteThere are so many untruths that it is impossible to unpack all of them.
ReplyDeleteBut one, plainly obvious one, is that Rabbi Forcheimer issued a psak here. He clearly wrote that the question should be brought to another Beis Din. He did not pasken like the Gorelik/Englander pamphlet, he did not claim anything about the halacha.
why won't bais vaad lizenus present their case in front three qualified unbaised senior rabbonim? It's a rhetorical question.
ReplyDeleteas for the blog, its quite obvious the blog's sole intention is to knock rav Malkiel and the older leadership, while trying to promotes young hotheads that issue wild heterim.
a months worth of posts, posts full of lies, nothing nice to say. no suggestions how to fix lakewood. just always seeing the 1% bad instead of the 99% good. everything this blog has posted so far nothing positive to offer. the blog editor(s) most be real horrible and dark inside their hearts.
Let's make it real easy, if you see this blog is knocking someone or something, it's a sign they are probably doing something right. If you see this blog supporting something, run away from it, it's almost certainly contaminated.
It is unclear why you would expect us to have articles on the 99% good. What purpose would that serve? Our goal is simply to bring up issues for discussion. If you have a good idea how to fix it, or if you disagree with the premise of the issue, then by all means, go ahead and comment or even send in your own article.
Deleteyour are not here fix anything, you only want to highlight and exaggerate any faults.
DeleteAbout you it says
כל מי שיש בידו .... ושלשה דברים אחרים, מתלמידיו של בלעם הרשע ... עין רעה, ורוח גבוהה, ונפש רחבה, מתלמידיו של בלעם הרשע.... אבל תלמידיו של בלעם הרשע יורשין גיהנם ויורדין לבאר שחת
We obviously tend to disagree with you, but yours is a fair enough position.
DeleteAnon 8:03 - you have your facts wrong. The Beis havaad has offered, multiple times, to go to various people with their information. The pamphlet authors and organizers of the maaracha have steadfastly refused.
DeleteSadly, מעשה שטן הצליח, and those who rely on blogs for their information, while bashing them, have created a narrative as though some temimusdige family members want a birur and the Beis Din is refusing. That is categorically not true.
Anon 4:22 AM, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from but I can say with 100% certainty that this is false. I know that that narrative is being promoted by some people on the gass, but I am in contact with people who are in touch with the matirim themselves and they are flat-out refusing to go to a third party diyun. Last week, they proposed three names who the family did not feel comfortable with (R' Uri Deutsch, R' Henoch Shachar and R' Senderovic - first two are very close R' Semietitzky and work with him on almost a daily basis, last one they felt was slanted towards RSK). At some point last week, both sides agreed upon R' Yisroel Reisman, R' Yisroel Dovid Shlezinger from Monsey and R' Boruch Hirshfeld from Cleveland. But then the Bais HaVaad refused to sign that they commit to listen to this Bais Din's decision! Now, one of the "Roshei Bais Din" of the Bais Havaad has written up a letter that the Bais HaVaad should not go to a diyun. This letter has not yet been released.
DeletePeople are jumping from topic to topic.
DeleteIf you want them to lay their cards on the table, why do they have to 'sign' to be bound by any other Beis Din? They can just show their cards, and another Beis Din will give its opinion.
The (mis) quotes from the Noda BiYehuda did not demand that any Beis Din submit itself to other Batei Dinim.
And, the truth is, any Rav who wants to hear the Beis Hava'ad's opinion, can just ask. Some signed without asking, others didn't even bother asking. This is another non-ehrliche ma'aracha.
Anon 6:18 - you seem to be contradicting yourself.
DeleteFirst, you write "they are flat-out refusing to go to a third party diyun".
Then, one sentence later, you write, "Last week, they proposed three names".
Then, "both sides agreed upon R' Yisroel Reisman, R' Yisroel Dovid Shlezinger from Monsey and R' Boruch Hirshfeld from Cleveland".
So, which is it?
I must admit, you guys have my respect. In the three or so days that this blog has been active, you guys have managed to make bigger fools of yourselves than Yudel Shain, who has literally spent an entire lifetime trying to debase himself and show what a clown he is. But in a mere 72 hours, you've taken the crown as the biggest, guileless clowns in the entire Yiddishe blogosphere, an accomplishment that takes people an entire lifetime! Yechi Hamelech!
ReplyDeleteWell Said!
DeleteThere was back-and-forth communication between someone representing R’ Grossman and the Laskins, who were working with R’ Shia Krupenia.
ReplyDeleteThe first point clarified was that R’ Sholom Kamenetzky does not intend to participate in the diyun—only the other matirim involved. The family insisted that the din Torah follow the standard process, with both sides meeting the Beis Din zeh b’fnei zeh.
However, the Beis Havaad refused, maintaining that this is not a formal din Torah and that they would only agree to present the case to the dayanim privately. In response, the other side requested that, if this was the case, they be provided with a recording of the meetings so they could properly address and respond to everything discussed. Even the representative of R’ Grossman acknowledged that this was a reasonable request, but when the matter was brought to the Beis Havaad, they refused.
As it stands now, there is little chance of the diyun taking place.
Oh boy. I heard that the Laskins have some surprise tricks up their sleeve to tighten the screws and "encourage" the Bais HaVaad to come to a diyun, should they decide to dig in their heels. Looks like it's coming to that. Stay tuned for the fireworks.
DeleteAnd the narrative setting continues... First of all Rabbi Krupenia is Yedidya's uncle and mouthpiece. Secondly, time and time again they have agreed to other people looking over their work. They are not afraid of that. They just won't agree to all sorts of preconditions that Englander and Gorelick are demanding. Rather something very straightforward. Namely, that the next Beis Din will deal with this shaila as they would deal with any other question brought before them of someone who received a psak that is being called into question. There's no fight. Just figuring out if a mistake was made. But Englander insists on his new format of Din Torah where him and let's say Rabbi Bess debate the subject until the dayanim feel that one has beaten the other at the debate. When they obviously don't agree, he uses it to try and promote his narrative.... So once again, as usual, we have Laskin Family Narrative....
DeleteJust wondering, if heter was given by a few rabbis, why is beis vaad being asked to explain? And the answer is obvious, the heter given by the rabbis is based upon beis vaads (faulty?) factual conclusion. That's why they are being called to explain. This is not a question of halacha, it's a question of facts. Beis vaad knows they might have a very big problem on their hands. These letters do nothing to resolve the real issue, possible collosal mistake in facts by beis vaad. If they did make a mistake, then the need to answer the next question, was it an innocent mistake or were they played. I know it, you know it, beis vaad knows it, we all know it. It does not look good.
ReplyDeleteThing is that the information provided by the Bais Havaad based on the familial testimony was then all confirmed by the second Beis Din and Rav Shmuel Fuerst also spoke to family and those representing directly, so they are most definitely not relying on them for information. So yet again we see the maaracha makers trying to set a faulty narrative that they believe will help set PR in their favor...
Deletei dont get why ppl r so hungup on this case dg&co has been issuing wild heterim like this for years is this the first case ppl found out abt?
ReplyDeleteThat's not my rosh yeshiva Rav Shmuel's handwriting, look like the Russian letter isn't the only forgery.
ReplyDeleteOf course it's not his.his handwriting, as you would know if you were a talmid, which you are not. But the signature is definitely
DeleteThe signature is his old signature.... as all talmidim who are abreast of his current situation are well aware.
DeleteIf you would be a talmid you would know at first glance that that is not an old signature. It actually took a while before he even agreed to write that (meaning dictate to someone to write and then he signed)
DeleteThe comments here are shameful. I am being moche for the kovod of Moreinu Horav Sholom Kamenetzky shlita. Bizayon haTorah!
ReplyDeleteWhy aren't you publishing the new letter? Doesn't fit your agenda?
ReplyDeleteWhat new letter? You can email it to us at fixinglakewood@gmail.com
DeleteI saw a new kuntres that's ringing alarms at 290 river ave.
DeleteI sent in Danziger (Englander's) letter. Let's see if it gets published.
DeleteJust a quick reminder that too many comments essentially saying the same thing in an attempt to push a specific narrative, such as why you feel that the experts authenticating the Russian letter should not be relied on, or why you feel it is wrong for us to allow comments that bash gedolim such as the Roshei Yeshiva Hageonim Harav Elya Ber and Harav Sholom Shlita, will not be allowed through as per the new rules.
ReplyDeleteSuch nice titles you post, just a three days ago you thought 'kotler' was an appropriate way to refer to an adom gadol.
DeleteWe are not quite sure what you are referring to.
DeleteI posted a comment asking why one side published letters from professionals stating in their professional opinion the russian letter is fake. The other side refuses to show their professionals opinions, and says trust us trust us. You chose not to publish. Nothing repetitive nothing offensive. The obvious conclusion is you censor from hard questions.
DeleteIn actuality we found it to be boring, repetitive, untruthful, and plain old stupid. First of all, Team Gorelick redacted the pdf and didn't reveal the names, so what's it worth? Anyone could decide all those things and write them. The only response from a different expert would be I disagree with all your statements. There's no room or reason for anything fancy. Why release a redacted statement saying just that when you could just say it? Anyway, who is to say they have not been showing to Rabbanim? And what makes you suspect Rabbi Bess of lying when he says he sent it to forensics? And why would he engage with accusations of him lying when he says he sent it to experts? Why would he engage with people complaining about a case he is dealing with anyway? Since when does it work that way - that just because someone puts out something not like you (and especially when it is halachically not their business), you have to respond? Are we a bunch of babies? (Besides, it is well known that one of the expert opinions was shown and that expert received non-stop harassment from Team Gorelick.) So yes. Even without any inside knowledge about the Russian letter, we feel the level of intelligence and the level of conversation promoted by such comments are unbecoming of the more mature readers of our blog. They are boring, repetitive, untruthful, and plain old stupid, asinine comments far below the level of intellect of your average Jew. Much more becoming of small-minded radicals and their ilk, whom we do not want to overrun the comments section.
Delete'refuses to show'
DeleteHow so?
Are you complaining that the Beis Havaad hasn't posted their opinion on the internet? That they didn't arrange a professional maaracha with signs and english pamphlets? How did this refusal take place?
Rabbi Bess said that he sent it to forensics? I never heard that. I only heard that RSK did so months ago. Do you have a way of backing that up?
DeleteI don't know where your information is coming from. As far as I heard from everyone I spoke to who knows anything about the case who is not trying to set Team Gorelick's narrative, Rav Sholom has nothing to do with the letter and never sent it to any verification, relying instead on the other Rabbanim's verification. Rav Bess has made very clear to all who asked him that he personally verified it.
DeleteAnd I heard that Rav Senderovic sent it for verification too and personally researched it.
DeleteI heard rabbi furest personally verified it
DeleteBoth Rabbi Bess initially, and Rabbi Senderovic had it sent for verification. That was a condition Rabbi Senderovic imposed when he retracted his letter of Issur
DeleteWhich version of the letter was sent for verification, when?
DeleteMister fixing Lakewood, I'm missing something. So you think the letter might be real. Are you seriously suggesting that there were two different avrohom yitzchak leshinskies, both married a chana pohotskin, and both had a kid named Nochum? Are you seriously suggesting that with a straight face?
ReplyDeleteAnd are you seriously suggesting that we just take at face value Gorelick and Englander's assertions that it must be this way? Are you so naive and foolish as to just swallow whatever they say to promote their agenda? That's a pretty low level of intelligence right there. You probably also swallow Indik's garbage that behaving a certain way creates dinim. And Gorelick and Indik's Indian hair garbage. And all their other conspiracy theories....
DeleteEven if we take this claim, we need to balance two highly unlikely claims.
DeleteNo serious person can accept that the Beis Din forged a letter.
But the idea that two people lived such similar lives is also unlikely.
How do we answer this question?
If we accept the possibility that people borrowed other people's identity when traveling to America under the quotas of the time, things start making sense. But some people, generally those desperate to fight authority and talmidei chachamim, prefer to propagate this ridiculous claim that a Beis Din just forged a letter.
There were no quotas until 1921. Long after all these people came to USA. No need to borrow other peoples identity
DeleteThere were quotas, but not as draconian as that of 1921. But there were various restrictions, including military service in Russia and others, that make the ship manifests basically useless sources of information.
DeleteAny restriction related to leaving Russia, not entering USA!
DeleteSo pray tell why everyone lied on their ship manifests from those days. For example, it's hard to find someone who said their correct age! And why were they all looking for sponsors and lying to create them?! Etc.? The reality on the ground is not always reflective of your limited understanding from a few articles you read on the internet, Dr. Englander (and Shach...)!
DeleteAsk why someone would submit a fake document to beis din? And then ask who?
DeleteNobody's claiming beis forged a letter , that's a straw man argument. Someone forged a letter, and the beis din trusted the source took the bait and qualified the letter without properly examining it.
DeleteThe verification they did is at least as good as kiyum shtaros... Top-level forensics and top Russian language experts. A shtar mekuyam could also be mezuyaf, but it's not their responsibility to suspect that. The only reason Englander would be so certain that it's mezuyaf even though it went through so much verification is if he was mezayef it to frame the rabbanim, which is very much in character for him.
DeleteRav Elyashiv, Rav Wosner, Dayan Dunner as well as many other Gedolei Haposkim and other Gedolei Torah weren't fazed by claims like that.
DeleteCan you tell us any other important pesakim from Dayan Dunner?
DeleteAny shala.
DeleteUPDATE: gorelick published part 2. according to those who read it the כהונה case is closed, there's no room for left doubt after what he presented. Anyone have the details?
ReplyDeleteHe put it out a while back and those who know anything about the case say it contains nothing that changes anything, and any relevant information was known to the other side a year ago.
DeleteTotally irrelevant, all the new booklet proves is all the laskins are cohanim mehudarim, big deal, everyone knows that, everyone always knew that, nothing to do with this case. If you don't know the heter the rabbonim used you should be quiet.
DeleteGorelick and Englander's booklet proves nothing of that sort unless you just swallow their one-sided information. Besides, since when can you make a family of Yisraelim into kohanim mehudarim through some research online? Don't you think you do the same research on most of the families of yisraelim that Rav Moshe was matir to not be kohanim? I just wonder if you would give pidyon haben to such kohanim. Instead of kohanei chazaka we now have a new thing called kohanei kevurah. And don't forget that kevarim also prove that they are not chalalim. Not at all similar to the halacha in Shulchan Aruch that an eid testifying that the father is a kohen doesn't make the son a kohen. Or the Mabit that an uncle having a chazaka does not make the nephew a kohen. The Halachic reasoning behind all this is too long for this short comment, but suffice it to say that all you people from Team Gorelick are publicly displaying your amaratzus.
DeleteI've heard from numerous reliable sources that it is mutar due to chalalus. The halachic reasoning based on a few different simanim in Shulchan Aruch is beyond the scope of this comment, but it seems that based on his Halachic reasoning he felt the marriage would be permitted as long as there is an umdana that an irreligious grandmother was a prutzah. It seems there is a lot of evidence to that. There's even a mamzeres or something like that. He said it should be kept very private but one part that everyone is hocking is that an irreligious grandmother lived in the same house as her second husband while her first husband was still alive! All this can be confirmed with any hocker on the streets.
DeleteSo it now seems the Beis Din actually meant what they said when they said there is information that should best be kept a secret... I wouldn't want anyone to know if my great grandmother lived in the same house as her second husband when her first husband was still alive... I wouldn't even want to know about it myself. And I'm not a kohen. But don't worry. I'm sure Gorelick and Englander will find a way out and will get Rav Elya Ber to sign off on it. Rav Elya Ber would get Knopfler to pasken that this is not an indication of her being prutza, but Gorelick would never let that...
DeleteIt's amazing how low people would stoop to stick up for themselves after realizing what a mistake they made. Their proof of a mamzeres is as good as the rest of their research, based on their inability to read english, they even invented a non existent person Renee kaplan. They are wicked, evil people
DeleteInvented a non-existent person based on an inability to read English?! Sounds pretty conspiratorial to me. Much like those that believe the UN Indian hair stats are made up... And it seems to me you are admitting there is a Renee Kaplan mamzeres, but think they made it up? You must know of her existence from somewhere, otherwise I doubt you would have heard her name from the Beis Din. They're not known for hocking their information in the streets like you...
DeleteEither way "Anon 8:00" didn't explain her living in the same house as her second husband when her first husband was still alive. I tend to agree with "Hindsight 20/20" that it is most likely info like this that the Rabbanim have consistently been saying should be kept a secret. Who knows what other damaging information they have...
DeleteDon't you think the Rabbanim wanted this kept secret for a reason? Who do you think you are revealing such stuff?! Such things should be kept quiet - see asara yuchasin. It has always been assumed by people as the most plausible explanation of what's going on, but where do you get the gall to say such things openly?! This is next level crazy! To publicly reveal chalalus/mamzerus! I don't know why in the world the moderator let it through!
DeleteAs far as I remember, the Gemara in Asara Yuchasin was a heter to keep things private, not a chiyuv.
DeletePeople were scared of powerful families who had a pessul embedded. But that is not a reason not to publicize a real pessul.
However, here it is mere rumors, and probably even less than that. It is not ok to comment, or allow a comment, like that through.
It seems there are real halachos about there not being an automatic chezkas kashrus for kehuna. There's a good reason Rav Moshe was matir with a heter chalalus with a lot less than the indicators in this case. (If you learn the sugya you may discover that this does not necessarily make them chalalim, just works against creating kehuna). The poskim that hold there's a heter chalalus here are not stupid. And especially if there's a mamzeres and she lived with her second husband while the first one was still alive.... That's all just to be michazek the fact that an irreligious woman in America did not have a chezkas kashrus for kehuna anyway. And especially when you take into account that there's no real chezkas kehuna to begin with in this case, which is all the more reason to use a heter chalalus. Another strong point is that according to the family's current claims that her husband was frum, the poskim say it's like two eidim she was mezane, with some going so far as to say that the kids are mamzerim, not just vadai chalalim! So I tend to believe the Rabbanim are the smart, responsible ones in this story.
Deleteאל תתלו בוקי סרוקי ברב משה
DeleteAnon 9:20: What an intelligent comment!
Delete@10:49 what an amaratzus rebuttal!
DeleteI heard that the stepfather Kaplan was also from the Minsk area and was good friends with Nathan from before and was always close to Nathan's wife. I would wonder if there wasn't information discovered that led to a shaila of mamzerus. I wonder why the family keeps insisting that this be publicized. (From what I hear the family was offered to be told information in private without Gorelick and Englander and on condition they won't repeat what they were told. They promptly asked Gorelick and Englander who told them to refuse.....)
DeleteI don't think comments like this should be published.
DeleteHow in the world are they supposed to have discovered that Kaplan was friends with Nathan and his wife?! We are talking about people who lived around 120 years ago and no one even knew they existed until a year ago. How does anyone suddenly have this century plus gossip?! Did they "find" a forged 120 year tabloid now too? Go ahead, don't publish my comment. But this is just insane.
DeleteGood question. But there is an answer. I am not going to post it. But the assumption that it is impossible is foolish. Lets say for an example there is a newspaper article announcing the engagement of said couple. Prior to the marriage to Nathan
DeleteGive. Me. A. Break.
DeleteIt's amazing how you guys keep "discovering" new information to support this heter. We went from the girl's family being Maranos, to Rabbi Dershowitz being a closet Charedi and using a secret third dayan on the Bais Din, to an allegation of chalalus that had to do with a Ben Gersom (forgot the detalis, you guys are churning them out too fast and furious!), to the family being mistaken in tracing themselves to AY hakohen Lashinsky, to a dubious-looking Russian letter which was supposed to confirm that, to a to-date unheard of and yet unproven allegations that a woman who lived 100 years ago was mezane tachas bayla. You guys are really rolling with the punches! Everytime your latest heter is shown to be the sheker that it is, Poof! You're on to the next one. Well, all I can say is that it's too bad you guys weren't living 100 years ago, you could have tipped off Mr. Nachum that his wife was cheating on him!
Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound?? Leave aside the fact you are creating a new salacious rumor over a century after it happened on almost zero evidence (and don't give me this garbage that you can't release your basis because you don't want to hurt the family, you are cynically and cruelly hurting the family by spreading baseless rumors as it is! You don't want to release whatever you have because you don't have anything or if you do, it's ridiculousness will be revealed lifnei kol am v'eida! Like all the other reasons so far!), but do you realize that this is literally the fifth entirely new reason of why the Laskins aren't kohanim?? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound to those of us on the street who have been keeping score? I would want to call you reshaim for spreading motzi shem ra like this online, but you're just a bunch of clowns! Doofuses! This is why no one takes you seriously! And I really hope that this is just gass hock and not coming from the hire-ups, because it would really reflect terribly on them!!
I know you won't publish this comment. But this is why everyone thinks you're a joke!
As far as I am aware, you kanaim are the ones who decided what the psak was based on and then attempted to undermine it. Whenever people realized you were just tricking them as usual, you chose something else to claim the psak was based on. The Rabbanim never publicly released anything explaining what the psak is based on, and everything anyone has ever heard them to have shown privately is mostly not what you guys have tried to claim. Everyone knows they were never matir with the geirus at any point, for example. That's trickery on your part and everyone sees right through it. And you sound extremely foolish talking about evidence you would have no clue if they have and making assumptions about what the evidence would be when you have no clue what the Halachic parameters of the psak are. For example, you clearly didn't take into account that there is no chezkas kashrus for kehuna. I don't know if there is room according to Halacha to forbid the marriage. I'm not a posek. But one thing I can say with certainty is that there is no room according to Halacha for them to take pidyon haben or duchen.
Delete"I don't know if there is room according to Halacha to forbid the marriage. I'm not a posek. But one thing I can say with certainty is that there is no room according to Halacha for them to take pidyon haben or duchen."???????
DeleteLeaving aside the innacuracies in the rest of your comment, this line struck as particularly silly. You're not a posek, so you don't know if he can marry a giyores, but you do know that the family can't duchen or take pidyon haben?! Hey, I thought you just said that you're not a posek! Even the matirim wrote in their psak that the family can continue to duchen, and R' Sholom Kamenetzky told someone I know that they can take pidyon haben!
Once again, you expose your small-minded foolishness and lack of הבנה and הבחנה. Do you have to be a posek to know that bread is המוציא?! Even were the family to actually know that the grave of AY is their ancestor - and not just claim to know it based on Englander's amateurish foray into the inaccurate science of genealogy - graves are not עדות or שטרות etc., and the most you'll find is שיטות that you should be חושש לחומרא. (I don't think they would tell you to get divorced based on that, and even from those that hold you should be חושש לחומרא I have seen some write להדיא that that's only before the marriage, so I would not have thought the grsve conversation relevant, but then again I am not a posek.) But I can't imagine how you can possibly dig up kehuna from graves that Englander potentially discovered with his year of non-stop amateurish research. But if the Rabbanim are saying that, I guess I'll have to accept it as a גזירות הכתוב. Though of course, you will never reveal who Rav Sholom told this to. I'm sure it is secret information...
DeleteSome responses are so moronic, engaging with them can only take away from their stupidity. You've gained that distinction tonight. Mazel tov. Ah Freilechen Purim to you too.
DeleteThe appropriately named 'What a Joke' included in his pile of words the self semicha as ' those of us on the street'. He has announced who he is, what he represents, and how seriously we are to take his words.
DeleteIt is the 'people in the coffee rooms' and 'people on the street' to whom the pamphlets are geared, and why the Rabbanim involved don't care in the slightest about these claims.
עלובה עיסה שנחתומה מעידה עליה
Real Poskim that have a mesorah in psak know when and how to be mechadesh a heter. Amaratzim think that all a posek does is fact finding, and that's the furthest thing from the truth. It's called torah she'baal peh for a reason. Lets leave this question to real poskim.
ReplyDeleteReal poskim write a real teshuvah, birur halachah, mvarer both tzdadim, if not more.
DeleteReal poskim discuss with senior poskim, usually will not rely on their own chidush psak without being mitztaref other Real poskim
So you decided there was no Halacha cheshbonos here?! Are you so foolish?! And you believe the first thing they did was not speak to the family?! And somehow this was not discussed with senior poskim?! I have to say, with arguments like these you got me convinced...
DeletePretty foolish to reply about family being a tzad when referring to birur halachah of all tzdadim, tzad would mean tzad heter tzad isur, tzad chalal tzad posul, tzad pidyon haben tzad birchas kohanim, etc.
DeleteNo decicsision were made, it's a discussion.
Why is everyone so interested in this?Wherever I go this is all everyone is talking about.Why do people care so much about this?Can someone please explain this to me.
ReplyDeleteAll the generations psukei yuchsin was a serious matter, any chashash of making chalolim, mamzerim, asufi, shtuki, psulei kahal, or claiming that others are was always taken very seriously by all.
DeleteHere there is also another mitzvah that every yisroel has vkidashto.
And further yet if this is only part of the beginnings stages of mass potential anti-matirim kanuuim , people want to be careful and warned.
There is no mitzvah of vekidashto here. That's just plain foolishness.
DeleteThe Megaaskan is right. This is kanna'us for its own sake, a way for people to pass the time, to forget how empty their lives are, to forget how many of their dreams have not panned out, and to mitigate their cognitive dissonance when they see how many aveiros they have done.
Kanna'us at its finest. By the time you reach a certain age, past 30 usually, you should recognize it immediately
Kanaus is also a good deed.
DeletePichos got Sahalom and Kehuna as a reward for Kanaus where there was no chiyuv.
However , it might seem here that EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion.
Am I dreaming? Or was this tumult completely replaced by the WZO tumult? For all those who thought this wasn't politics....
ReplyDeleteHamitzvah shebo beavara ano mitzvah, WZO can help torah, really ????? and Hashem cant yc schwab?????
ReplyDeleteWhat was the outcome from the big diyun? Should've been news by now,why haven't we heard anything yet?
ReplyDeleteDon't be fooled by the silence, it's the calm before the storm.
DeleteHold on tight something big is dropping in a week or two. Will make the bombing in Yemen look like child's play.
ReplyDelete💥 Boom! 💥
ReplyDeleteGrossman cracked
Business before friends
he needs to find a new place to daven on ימים נוראים
What the heck are you talking about? Or are you as foolish and gullible as Shach Alter...
Delete@908 youre a clueless young little shnook who knows nothing
Delete@8:15 Hi, Shach!
DeleteI confirmed big moves are taking place, and everyone in bhv kollel is terrified, fund raising dried up and if the real story goes public, they'll all need to find a new joint.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure who you are trying to scare. Those with shaichus to the case know the truth, and those without don't care.
DeleteBesides, what could happen? Malkiel or Chaim Tzvi will learn Halacha, get smicha and shimush, and write a thsuvah explaining a new mehalech in chazaka and shavya anafshei not like the rishonim and acharonim?! (You could send it to Fixing Lakewood's Torah Forum, though I doubt the level of scholarship of such tshuvos would be found sufficientt.... You would probably need Shach Alter for that.) Or will more empty kuntresim, pashkivillin, and kol korehs go out? (I have some ideas for the latter: Simply take emes knei and replace all the details of Malkiel's heter with the details of this case. Other than the details, everything works out well.....)
skeptic - to bad you didn't go to a real high school like Philly and you would've learned to write at a minimum one coherent sentence. Nobody has any idea what you just blabbed about
DeleteI'm skeptical about that...
DeleteThis comment aged well, didn't it?
DeleteAged like fine wine
DeleteAs is usually the case, the kanaim have resorted to doomsday talk while the rest of the world has moved on with life.
ReplyDeleteYou live in a beautiful imaginary world where everything is calm and peaceful.
DeleteToo bad on you the real world doesn't operate that way.
Wow! That's about as cryptic as it gets! But I remain highly skeptical of your assertion that people have not moved on. But then again. In Fallsburg they probably didn't...
DeleteWow! Nothing happened.
ReplyDeleteAs we all knew.
Tumults are just a waste of time. In Beis Hamedrash, the Halacha was decided. In the streets, signs were publicized.
I heard that there's a secret tshuva being sent around explaining why the Laskins do not have a din of mamzerim. Anyone knows what it says in it?
ReplyDeleteWhat a disgusting comment!
DeleteErase it now!
What's disgusting about the comment?
DeleteWasn't the whole heter based on the mamzerus? I guess you need less to be matir than to asur the family? It would be very interesting to see what the tshuva says.
DeleteDo you not know why insinuations about mamzerus are disgusting? Wow!
DeleteAnd no, the heter wasn't based on mamzerus. Stop spreading filthy rumors about people.
So what was all that stuff being talked about earlier? I reread those comments and they makes a lot of sense. It definitely seems like a strong possibility. How do you claim to know otherwise? Because they didn't tell you?!
Deletedoes anyone know why baisvaad backed out at last minute from going infront of independent outside panel to finally explain their side?
ReplyDeleteThere you go with your narrative setting lies and propaganda again! Firstly, for the sake of peace they agreed numerous times, only to be turned down by Gorelick and the oiber-chacham from England who had all sorts of demands. Secondly, it seems Gorelick and the oiber-chacham didn't manage to find three names that people would view as independant and reasonable who were willing to do it who they could be sure would pasken like them. Thirdly, Bais Havaad doesn't even have a side here. Or are you dumb?! (Then again, chances are the commenter is Shach, and he ain't exactly known to be killin' it in the brains department...)
DeleteDumb dumber dumbest can you clarify why bais havaad walked away from an agreed upon panel?
DeleteOnly the dumbest don't know the obvious answer. They never planned on sitting down just bais havaad playing the usual games.
Facts are the bais havaad ran away like a little dog with its tail between it's legs, and suddenly all the bais havaad apologetics are silent.... Tells you all you need to know... They never had any goods to show... It's an embasserment they likely will never recover from
DeleteLol bais havaad doesn't even have a side here but out of the goodness of their hearts they are getting involved in a messy case just to make peace in our town. Wow just as they're so great at making peace between husband wife.
DeleteGrand opening!!!
DeleteWill be open in time for a aseres yemi teshuva beautiful new kaporos center at 290 River Ave. Top quality chickens. Kaporos limehadrin.
By lying about their willingness to explain their twisted psak, Bais havaad lost all נאמנות in the of בני תורה. Their client base has shrunk to naive בעל הבתים who fancy buildings speaks louder to them than honest דיינים.
DeleteLol keep up the spin, bais havaad owns this mess, and as expected they chickened out. Again.
ReplyDeleteThey've become a complete laughing stock. Nobody takes them seriously anymore.
Nice tactic! You make believe that "בני תורה" at large are against the Beis Din, and assume that anyone reading your comment will accept that as fact and try to align with the "בני תורה" by being against the Beis Din. Sorry. Not fooled.
ReplyDeleteYou think if you lie enough times and say that the Beis Din turned down the independent panel, then it will become fact, when in truth you just couldn't find a panel that was willing to go through with it once they realized what was going on. Also, once it became clear that this wasn't a Bais Havaad psak, and there were Rabbanim who always deal with these shailos who issued the psak, the whole idea fell apart. The Bais Havaad doesn't even seem to have access to all the necessary information, though I am certain you will decide they do... (Either way there is no reason for them to accept a panel, and one would hope that as a Beis Din they wouldn't give into pressure to accept a panel for political purposes. Any way, it doesn't make sense for multiple other reasons, but keep spouting your narrative..... There's a reason you need to scream the loudest and constantly be running around - as R' Avi Feinstein explained in the recording on YouTube.) But go ahead with your tactics. Just make sure you sound certain of your knowledge, and continue spewing smoke
But one thing that is now clear is that this is simply an attack on Bais Havaad and nothing to do with the poor Laskin mamzerim anymore.
tell me you're desperate without screaming for help, "r avi feinstein youtube video"
Deletethe funniest joke I've heard all year.
The "rabanim who always deal with these matters" waved Rabbi Forchheimer's
Deletename as their most chashuve supporter, and HE wrote they should go to another beis din. End of story.
Do you actually have no clue what went on here? Or are you just playing dumb? Na... More likely you actually are dumb. Why don't you at least have the decency to read Rabbi Bess' kuntris. Or the lengthy tshuvos lehalacha that have been written on the subject. Oh! You didn't even bother trying to get your hands on them??! Sounds like you're not driven by an agenda...
DeleteI'm happy someone brought this up, it about time Rabbi Bess's rumored teshuva on the topic gets wide spread publicly. I can't wait for you to post it.
Delete"once they realized what was going on"
DeleteWhat a strange remark, what are you even talking about???? You just spew garbage worse than a backing up toilet
Bess kuntres doesn't exist, it's more fakenwws frim the bais havaad disinformation factory
DeleteThere teshuva either it's just lies and more lies by crybaby adult children who don't know how to admit they screw up a a halacha ruling and two people's lives, which completely out of their league.
DeleteNo kuntris by RGBess, just a small teshuva primarily based on the Russian letter being authentic. All the rabbonim who saw all laughed at it, to which RGBess responded "the is just a summary of the kuntris I'm working on"
DeleteThat was over 3 months ago, meanwhile he hasn't produced anything.
There you go again. Just lying from your tuchus. You have no shame in spewing tall tales like a little kid, Shach?
DeleteAnyway, tshuvos are written about Halacha. For things like Russian letters, professionals are contracted to analyze. The tshuvos lehalacha are extensive and very clear, and they don't involve anything to do with digging up graves and destroying letters in an attempt to magically conjure kehuna....
So basic havaad does all the lineage research, but is now claiming the don't have access to all the documents???? What the hell does that even mean???
ReplyDeleteBig joke, now the best defense for bais havaad is 'they didn't have all the information'
ReplyDeleteThey are croaking
What dumb people. So if Rav Moshe gave a psak and you go ahead and research, and Rav Moshe holds that your research is not Halachically sufficient reason for divorce, and on top of that another Rav involved contracts a professional researcher who concludes that your conclusion is faulty, further strengthening that he doesn't have to divorce, and Rav Moshe doesn't have the details, that's a problem?!!!
ReplyDeleteBloviate havaad changed stories so many times they have no neemanus left whatsoever. But claims they aren't the one whos faulty research their own absurd psak leans on, is a new extreme of propaganda.
DeleteDid the Beis Havaad say they didn't have all of the information?
ReplyDeleteOr some anonymous commenter?
When Gorelick wrote his pamphlets, he knew more information was available, yet chose not to include it. Why?
The 'expert' of the Rabbanut wrote total nonsense in his letter, how is he still an 'expert'?
Many legal translators and researchers, with a full אומן לא מרע אנפשיה, testified to the accuracy of this letter. Why are people still pushing the stupid forgery narrative?
The Beis Havaad did not lose at all. The people who used them until now, still use them. The dead wood was chopped away. They are in the same position as before. But some self-described 'bnei Torah', or 'people in the coffee room' (maybe they are one and the same) have lost out. Because instead of two batei dinim in town, they only have one.
We can argue all day if the mrs is a giroses or not, we can argue if the laskins are cohanim or not, we can even argue if baby epstein is a mamzeres or not. One thing is absolutely certain the so-called Russian letter is as fake as a cheap rollex being sold on the streets of chinatown. Any rabbi that says otherwise should have the paper certificate hanging behind his desk burnt with his chometz.
DeleteNot only did beis havaad lose, they are lost. Maybe the Miami branch has some credibility, but lakewood branch is gone...............
DeleteThere we go again with the rhetoric. Get a new tactic. This one is too obvious. You say something enough times, and make believe everyone feels this way and it is the obvious truth, and hope that eventually enough people fall for it - after all, doesn't everyone hold this way?!
DeleteBut the thing is when you are too obvious about it, it doesn't work.
There are people who make decisions based on cheap rhetoric and what 'people on the street' think.
DeleteMany comments are geared towards those people.
Usually, these people have an inverse relationship with productivity and relevance. Productive people, who work, learn, teach, and produce substance to the world, have sufficient experience to ignore the rhetoric of 'What a joke' and his ilk. But it is those people who have to be persuaded. And meanwhile they are not.
The Beis Havaad, in Lakewood, is as relevant as it always was.
The professional tumulters are currently searching for a new issue to hang their (Homburg) hats on.
And the world continues.
A machlokes anonymous commentors whether or not beis havaad had the full info. I think I'll go with anonymous.
ReplyDeleteBais Havaad turned into a big joke, and now it's affecting their fundraising capabilities, salaries are being paid late, they are headed towards financial implosion. Too bad they learned the hard way the importance of staying their lane.
ReplyDeleteSome more word-salad...
DeleteWho has details on the new gitten controversy involving Bais HaVaad?
ReplyDeleteAnother guy who lost a Din Torah and decided to take a ride on the tumult machers.
Delete